[The_Spell]

Hi, Everyone,

I've got an LTD Vipre 200-B that I've grown to love playing on more than my bass and my normal sixxer. Only problem is, I've become very unhappy with the sound so I was looking at tossing some new pick-ups in it.

I was looking at tossing in a D-Sonic and a PAF pro in it, just try something new. I was also looking at some SD Blackouts and EMG 81/85 pairing (though I feel like the EMGs are way overdone and I already have a pair in my bass. It's one of those "been there, done that kind of things in regards to the EMGs) as alternatives.
I play a lot of hard rock and metal. My goal was to try to bring out the natural sound of the baritone itself. You know, something that sounds good in a basswood body tuned to B-B.
I'm open to suggestions!

Thanks in advance!

[HarlowTheFish]

For lower tunings IMO you can go two ways:
A more modern-voiced pickup meant to work with lower tunings (D Sonic would be good if you're into the voicing, I like the D-Activator X wired in parallel as well, but there's many many options).
Something lower output that's pretty bright but that will keep the clarity (like the PAF Pro, or a Bluesbucker/Humbucker From Hell)

The first option leans more to the riffy-heavy school of low tunings, and in my experience if that's the vibe you're after, it's a killer pick. However, this isn't a setup I like for cleans or anything lighter than middle-of-the-road rock, because the tonal qualities that make a Bari with a hot pickup sound good with gain - overall brightness, low bass content, super focused midrange, and pretty pokey treble - make it sound kinda the cleaner you get because it turns out harsh and honky.
The second option gets you a little more versatility as far as gain ranges and use cases but with gain it's more of a "djenty" kinda sound - lots of attack, really dynamic, sometimes a little hard to play because your right hand needs to be super on point. As you turn down the gain, because the pickup is voiced a little more "normally" (vs. a Titan or D-Activator or whatever), it still sounds good and plays well with crunches and cleans.
I'd skip the Blackouts for anything lower than D because they have so much bass that it genuinely doesn't matter what you play - you just get mud when you go any lower. I saw Motionless in White a couple of years ago, Ryan had either the normal or metal ones and Ricky had the Mick Thomson sig, and while I could hear Ricky (couldn't really hear Ryan) I also couldn't really tell what notes he was playing.
I'm not big on EMGs because the compression they give you just does weird unpleasant things to the low end IMO.
From the Dimarzio lineup I'd suggest the Imperium if you want hot and either 2x PAF Pro or Fred-B, PAF Pro-N if you want something a little tamer.
Not Dimarzio, I'm partial to the Kiesel Lithiums for sort of splitting the difference (pretty hot, voiced for lower tunings, but still really nice with clean/crunch) or the Guitarmory Peacekeeper set for basically being the 81/85 but good

(jk jk guys)

[The_Spell]

That's definitely a lot to take in and consider. I think you are right about the EMGs and SDs I mentioned. They were just an option due to everyone and their grandmother recommending, arguing, and debating.

Having thought more about it, I think the first option is the best. I'm not a huge fan of the djent sound. It works, don't get me wrong, but it doesn't work for me; personally. I think what I'm looking for, and my thought process, is a set that sounds good clean and even better distorted.

Given the low tuning and the baritone just being deeper sounding and heavier although, would it be possible to throw a neck pick up on there with high treble, and medium bass and mid? How would that affect the baritone's sound? There's not a particular arist sound I'm chasing, but in my head I'm trying to go for a heavy, fat, explosive kind of sound.
I know I need a pick up to handle the lower tuning.
Anything that comes to mind?

[HarlowTheFish]

Yeah a neck pickup in the bridge is no problem. I hear people quite like the Liquifire and Titan Neck as bridge pickups, but I haven't gotten a chance to try that setup a lot.

I think you'd have a good time with the D Sonic/PAF Pro if you like the voicing on them, but I'm personally not crazy on the clean tones of either one without a coil split.
The Duncan Custom 5/Jazz Neck setup is pretty good, it just needs your right hand chops to be good because if you don't accentuate your attack well then you'll lose some articulation. These do sound pretty nice clean though. Clear, broad midrange, fat bottom with only a bit of flub (you can EQ or boost out), nice treble.
If you're not against actives, the Fishman Fluence Moderns (or one of the signature sets) are getting recommended by everyone and their grandmothers, and it does sound really good. They're kinda their own thing but Fishman's got a ton of clips of the entire lineup on YT.
I've also heard basically the entire lineup of Petrucci pickups from standard to drop G and they sound killer, but they have a pretty specific and pretty similar (to each other) voicing that you either like or don't, so it's more like picking a slight variation. These tend to have a hearty helping of midrange, a pretty tight bass, and enough treble to cut through nicely but not much more. I personally disagree with the neck pickup EQ a little (I prefer something brighter) but if you dig the Petrucci tone then these are a pretty good pick.

I gotta say that with what you're looking for I'd personally probably go for the Guitarmory stuff. I've got a set of Peacekeepers that I've used from D standard do Drop A and they're absolutely killer. They have options that go hotter and thicker than that, as well as a little more tame, so there's a good bit of variety in their lineup. Most have clips too.

[The_Spell]

I checked out some videos and artists using some of the pickups you've been talking about.

For as often as I've seen them recommended, finding actual videos for the D-Sonic/PAF Pro pairing is a real pain. I've seen some videos and they do sound killer. I'm leaning more towards them than anything.

I'm familiar with the Fishman sound from Nurgle (Behemoth), Willy Addler (Lamb of God), and Ken Susi (Unearth) and those are pretty good sounding too, but no one's really tossed them in a baritone from what I've seen. They do sound pretty wicked, but that price tag.

There's not really a whole lot of information regarding the Guitarmory Peacekeepers and it appears as if they're no longer manufactured; unless I missed something, which may have happened.

I'm not at all familiar with the Petrucci sound or brand. In fact, isn't that a legendary blues player? Joe Petucci, I think? You wouldn't mind telling me a little bit more about your preferred Petrucci set, would you?

Overall, I'm leaning more towards the D-Sonic/PAF Pro pairing and the Fishman Fluence Modern. I can't go wrong with either, but now I just need to really think it out and make a decision.
And maybe learn how to solder.

[HarlowTheFish]

Ahh dammit the bastards discontinued the peacekeeper 
The Minuteman and Patriot are basically Peacekeeper Lite and Peacekeeper Plus respectively AFAIK from talking to the owner when I got mine, but I kinda dug the middle ground. Ah well.
The Fishmans are pricey, but they sound good. I've played them in a 7 in B, but not a baritone 6, and they sounded killer for the low stuff.
John Petrucci of Dream Theater is basically modern shreddy guitar Jesus, as far as modern shreddy guitarists are concerned (not being one I think his riffs are cool and funky but the solos go kinda over my head). I like the Sonic Ecstasy set the best, but you can only get them with that hideous etched cover, so no thanks. The Illuminator is a pretty close second, I just find the SE a little tamer and less aggressive. The Crunch Lab/Liquifire set feels to me like the punk rock Illuminator: kinda raw and bright and pokey in a way that's really good but also in a way you can't really tame, that's just how they are all the time. The Dreamcatcher/Rainmaker literally just got released so I have no idea how they sound other than "probably like the other JP pickups" and "probably still really good". They're all slightly different approaches to the same general sound, just depends on what specifically you're looking for.

[The_Spell]

Oh, lel. That's my bad. I'm not big Dream Theater so that's probably why, but I did recognize the name somewhat.

I did check out the pickups though, and man. Those are all pretty damn awesome sounding. I did find one o those shootout videos and the guy comparing the crunch lab to the Illuminator did a good job. The Crunch Lab sounds good on its own but the Illuminator sounds good in a mix. It sounds, to me, like the Liquifire/Crunch Lab are good solo pickups and the Illuminator set sounds better in a mix which leads me to believe that they're pretty good for rhythm players; me. But again, no baritone examples. They both sound killer though.

Is there a pickup rental service? No? Ok... lol.
At least now I have a much clearer idea of what I'm looking for and the Fishman Fluence Modern are out the window for the time being.

Now I just need to figure out if I want to settle on the D Sonic/PAF Pro or the Illuminators. Both are very good options with very reasonable prices.

Decisions, decisions...

[HarlowTheFish]

Oh, lel. That's my bad. I'm not big Dream Theater so that's probably why, but I did recognize the name somewhat.

I did check out the pickups though, and man. Those are all pretty damn awesome sounding. I did find one o those shootout videos and the guy comparing the crunch lab to the Illuminator did a good job. The Crunch Lab sounds good on its own but the Illuminator sounds good in a mix. It sounds, to me, like the Liquifire/Crunch Lab are good solo pickups and the Illuminator set sounds better in a mix which leads me to believe that they're pretty good for rhythm players; me. But again, no baritone examples. They both sound killer though.

Is there a pickup rental service? No? Ok... lol.
At least now I have a much clearer idea of what I'm looking for and the Fishman Fluence Modern are out the window for the time being.

Now I just need to figure out if I want to settle on the D Sonic/PAF Pro or the Illuminators. Both are very good options with very reasonable prices.

Decisions, decisions...

the Dream Theater songs Paralyzed and Out of Reach on the new album have his JP6 BFR Baritone with the Crunch Lab/LF set, if you want to hear them with a baritone. I can't find anything with the Illuminators in a proper baritone but it'll give you a decent point of reference.
There's no pickup rental service AFAIK but Dimarzio lets you swap out pickups for others in the range (that are the same price I think) that you can definitely use to find something you like.

[The_Spell]

I checked out those songs. I just wanted to say you suck, my friend. I don't need feels like that at this time of night, currently observing 1:01am, while I'm at work. Out of Reach is so good. I haven't been moved like that by a song in awhile, not since I heard The Patient by TOOL way back in 2011 when I was exploring their discography. I'm proud to say Out of Reach is the first DT song I can say I like so that's pretty sweet. Maybe my phone is a little on the crappy side, but I could really only hear his guitar when he was playing the higher notes and it was a little overpowered by the piano. It sounded really good though. Not really a fan of the djent sound on Paralyzed, though, but that's more his header settings and distortion than anything. Gotta check out more DT though, for "research."

Moreorless, I think I've decided on the D Sonic and PAF Pro. I like what I've heard of those and they do seem like a really good starting point, and you did say they can be swapped out for a similar set for the same price or in the same line so there's always that.

[HarlowTheFish]

sorrynotsorry
The Dream Theater mix is kinda weird because JP is the only guitarist and he's got a more scooped tone to sit around Jordan Rudess' keyboards. It fits in the mix similar to a bass sometimes in that it's not always the main focus of it but if you took the guitars out it sounds really hollow. The best example of his tone (but with the Illuminators) is the beginning of Our New World (aka the only 30 seconds of that entire album that's salvageable).
a D Sonic/PAF Pro set sounds killer, and if you dug the sound samples of the Katana in the other thread make sure you try the D Sonic both ways (bar close to and away from the bridge) because it makes a pretty drastic difference. Bar towards the neck will be big and muscular but on the less bright side, while bar towards the bridge will be a brighter, more like the Lithiums I had for the Drop A stuff.

[The_Spell]

Oof. That sounds rough. Is it a bad mix or a bad album?

See, that's interesting. I didn't know I could pull a Hendrix on it. Would the Paf Pro be affected.similarly if I did the same thing with it?

[HarlowTheFish]

Oof. That sounds rough. Is it a bad mix or a bad album?

See, that's interesting. I didn't know I could pull a Hendrix on it. Would the Paf Pro be affected.similarly if I did the same thing with it?

It's a Dream Theater mix, so it sounds pretty good, but The Astonishing is like 2 hours of tired composition, a much-overdone concept (and being that it's a concept album that's pretty bad), and is probably the album where James Labrie is at his most nasal and obnoxious. Like, it's DT, so it's still better than a lot of stuff, but for DT it's basically trash.
The intro riff of Our New World though, before the rest of the band comes in, is my benchmark heavy guitar tone. It's soooooo good. Then the rest of the band comes in and it just turns into more The Astonishing and, in a move that's astonishing to no one, I lose interest completely and go listen to Wolf & Bear's Everything Goes Gray because I need to scrub my ears with something good.
The thing with flipping the D Sonic (and a bunch of other Dimarzios) is that they're not wound symetrically - each coil has a different output and tone, so flipping them around affects what you hear pretty drastically. I'm pretty sure the PAF Pro isn't one of these and flipping it will do nothing, but I think the FRED and the Satriani pickups that are based on it (Mo' Joe and PAF Joe) do this. FRED's a little brighter and snappier than the 'Pro, Mo' Joe is a brawnier FRED, and the PAF Joe is a little midrangier and more flutey.