[jovima69]

Hey all,

I installed a Crunchlab/Liquifire 7 set in my RG7321. From the 12th fret to the 24th fret on the high e & b strings, a note will sustain for no more than 2 seconds. Initially after the install, the high e would not sustain at all, but I backed the p/u's off, and the string seemed to "sustain", but to the level it's at now, approx 2 seconds. I am a relative newbie when it comes to guitar maintenance, but I am motivated, and willing to learn. Any help or advice is greatly appreciated.

[greenlion]

The closer you get the pickup magnet to the strings, the more it pulls on the string, slowing its vibration down and killing sustain. Do you have a set-up ruler to accurately measure your pickup height?

[jovima69]

Thanks for the response. I set the pickup height based on the FAQ's from the DiMarzio site with a machinists rule. I'm not ready to go to the tech just yet... I bought new strings last night, and will see how that affects the sustain.

[RayBarbeeMusic]

A lot of sustain issues are caused by bad fretwork, specifically not enough fall away. 

[greekdude]

Hey all,

I installed a Crunchlab/Liquifire 7 set in my RG7321. From the 12th fret to the 24th fret on the high e & b strings, a note will sustain for no more than 2 seconds. Initially after the install, the high e would not sustain at all, but I backed the p/u's off, and the string seemed to "sustain", but to the level it's at now, approx 2 seconds. I am a relative newbie when it comes to guitar maintenance, but I am motivated, and willing to learn. Any help or advice is greatly appreciated.

How about prior installing those pups? Did you have any measurements of sustain ?

[greekdude]

Also does sustain stays the same from 23th fret to 24th? If yes this is hardly related to fretwork.

[slugworth]

Also does sustain stays the same from 23th fret to 24th? If yes this is hardly related to fretwork.

That would not be enough evidence to say that fret issues aren't the cause.

If the action is too low and/or there are any high frets, that is the most likely cause of lack of sustain.

In my experience it's also the most likely cause of people complaining about "cocked wah" tone from Dimarzios. Fret buzz can cause the fundamental tone to die while one or more harmonics continue to sustain, e.g. so-called "cocked wah" tone.

[greekdude]

Also does sustain stays the same from 23th fret to 24th? If yes this is hardly related to fretwork.

That would not be enough evidence to say that fret issues aren't the cause.

If the action is too low and/or there are any high frets, that is the most likely cause of lack of sustain.

In my experience it's also the most likely cause of people complaining about "cocked wah" tone from Dimarzios. Fret buzz can cause the fundamental tone to die while one or more harmonics continue to sustain, e.g. so-called "cocked wah" tone.

that's why the "hardly" word was used. Ok. let me re-phrase. If the pattern of the note dying out is the same on 23th and 24th fret, then it definitely is not the fretwork.

IMHO buzzing was never the problem for lack of sustain. If the woods want to cancel a note they will find their way to do it, no matter the string action or the pup height. If a string wants to ring, it will find its way to do it, even with imperfect fretwork. (provided chocking is not extreme)

[RayBarbeeMusic]

What was posted above is not correct. 

I work on this stuff for a living.  Bad fretwork can and usually does cause sustain issues and most people don't know it. 

Saying that "if the sustain is the same on the 23rd and 24th fret" it isn't due to bad fretwork is just absolutely wrong. 

You're talking about 12th to end.  Most guitars I see have some degree of rise from the 12th fret to the end instead of fall-away, which is a drop off, ideally gently curved.  The last 2 frets might be fine but both are too high and everything after the 12th might be rubbish as well. 

There is enough bad information on the internet without posts like that.

[darkbluemurder]

There can be many reasons for why a guitar does or does not sustain. To assure that there is nothing impeding sustain it should be checked that

a) the pickups are not so close to the strings that their magnetic field interferes with the string movement and
b) the string movement is not inhibited by the frets.

Eliminating a) is rather easy. Back the pickups way off, then bring them closer to the strings until you notice an out-of-tuneness when playing chords in the upper registers. Then back the pickups a bit down until the out-of-tuneness goes away.

b) can be due to many reasons, including an improper neck relief, improper fret work, not enough fall away or hump/rise in the fretboard or an improperly low action. 

Of course a guitar with all these problems eliminated can still not sustain well - that would then be the limitation set by the woods and construction of the guitar. But whether a guitar has that limitation or not can only be finally determined after all inhibiting factors have been eliminated.

On the other hand there may be well sustaining guitars inspite of having the above described problems. Well - how much better could they sustain with those problems removed?

Cheers Stephan

[greekdude]

What was posted above is not correct. 

I work on this stuff for a living.  Bad fretwork can and usually does cause sustain issues and most people don't know it. 

Saying that "if the sustain is the same on the 23rd and 24th fret" it isn't due to bad fretwork is just absolutely wrong. 

You're talking about 12th to end.  Most guitars I see have some degree of rise from the 12th fret to the end instead of fall-away, which is a drop off, ideally gently curved.  The last 2 frets might be fine but both are too high and everything after the 12th might be rubbish as well. 

"You're talking about 12th to end."
no I am talking about 23nd and 24th fret. It is obvious that if sustain sucks on 24th, and also sucks the same way on 23th, whereas it sustain for ages in buzzy 17th, then obviously the problem is not the freaking fretwork. You don't have to be a nobel prize winner to understand this.
I have researched the topic of sustain in so much advanced ways (physics, vibrations), that I think that someone trying to explain sustain problems by blaming the fretwrok "silver-bullet"-style, and bringing the fretwork in any discussion about sustain, is just downright retarded.

If a guitar's woods want to kill sustain they will do it, no matter how perfect the fretwork is, or whether the "drop off" is there or not.

The reason I am writing this, is to prevent people from investing fortunes (upgrades, repairs, mods, etc..) on guitars that will never deliver.

You have told us more than once that you do this for a living, I am a scientist who does not live on doing simple fixes on ppl's guitars.

There is enough bad information on the internet without posts like that.

I dont know about the internet, but I know that places like this forum are dying out due to behaviors like yours : semi-knowledgable professionals using the forum to promote their own interests, muting ppl who do not contribute to their interests, or have a different view or are just plain smarter than them.

[greekdude]

But whether a guitar has that limitation or not can only be finally determined after all inhibiting factors have been eliminated.

Or let me rephrase : after having spent their hard-earned money on "pros".

On the other hand there may be well sustaining guitars inspite of having the above described problems. Well - how much better could they sustain with those problems removed?

IMO not much. A sustaining guitar will do so even under the most hostile conditions. (stratitis, bad fretwork, etc)

After all, its not that hard for someone to raise the action and see if good sustain gets even better, albeit sustain is rarely noticed unless of course it is a true a nuisance, plus ppl rarely modify smth that already works.

[darkbluemurder]

But whether a guitar has that limitation or not can only be finally determined after all inhibiting factors have been eliminated.

Or let me rephrase : after having spent their hard-earned money on "pros".

That was not was I meant to say. Setting pickups in a manner to remove stratitis is something that any player can learn to do without having to spend anything except to purchase a screwdriver (if the household does not already have one). Same for setting the action a tad higher if it was too low. That does not cost anything.

If after these simple adjustments you find that the guitar's action is now way too high then the neck relief and/or frets could be the culprit. If the guitar at that point sustains well it's up to the individual to decide whether or not to take it further. If the guitar at that point does not sustain well it is still a good point to decide that the guitar is probably not worth to go further.

Cheers Stephan

[buddroyce]

Typically when someone brings in a guitar with a guitar that lacks sustain on the upper frets, there's a series of things I check. Neck straightness, fret condition, action, string saddle and the pickups themselves(usually just to see if it's too high). More often than not it's an issue with the neck not being straight or a high fret. Every once in a while it'll be due to flattened frets from a lot of wear.

[greekdude]

IMO the buzzing must be *horrible* in order to be the real cause for lack of sustain, in which case the guitar not only sustains bad, but it also sounds awful anyway. So we are not really talking about bad sustain in this case, but for a nastily buzzing guitar.
I had buzzing problems with my Ibanez uv70p on 1st fret, high E, cause of ultra low action, yet, still the sustain was on par with open high E, which means that the energy left *after* the initial choking is enough for the string to vibrate for a long time, if counter wood/hardware vibrations could be eliminated.